47RE advice

[Ram Man 02]

First let me say Hello to everyone. My name is Jeremiah. I own an 02 that i bought new. currently has 168k. I still love the truck but it has me very frustrated lately and I need some advice. This is going to get long winded but im going to do my best to describe whats going on. It has a Banks big hoss tuner thats 70hp and some 65hp injectors. fairly mild set up and im very happy with how it performs.

 

several years ago I had torque converter problems. it shuttered in lock up, and you could power through the clutch while it was locked. the more you loaded the engine ( such as in 4x4, or pulling a trailer) the worse the shaking got. i limped it along until it got to a point where i couldnt  even use 4x4 in OD because it shook the truck so bad. This shaking could be described like snow or mud packed into the wheels. as soon as i dropped under 45mph and the converter unlocked it went away. I assumed it was the stock junk converter.

 

finally decided to get the trans rebuilt 3 years ago at 155k and called Goerend but they told me they dont do customer work anymore and would have to go through one of their dealers. so i found the closes one to me and had them do the work. we'll call them "shop A" and all they do is automatic rebuilds and I did all the R&R. they installed a Triple disk converter, shift kit, billet input, ect. dont remember all the little details off the top of my head but i wanted overkill so i never had to pull it again.

 

fast forward to earlier this year and probably 10k miles later i started having shuttering problems again but it was my only vehicle at the time and couldnt do anything about it so i drove it 2 months like that until i got a new work car. Then i only drove it when needed because it started having delayed engagement problems and the converter would drain back if it sat for more then a week. so i finally did something about it in September. I drove it to "Shop A" so they could drive it and see the problems. they agree that something is wrong and it still under warranty so they will fix it. So i tear the trans out and drop it off.

 

They told me they found play in the Stator and that was causing all my problems. cut the converter open and everything looked good in there.I asked how the clutches looked and they were like new so they also got reused. They delivered it to me when it was finished and also flushed the lines and coolers since they found some shavings in the pan.

 

I put it back in and with in 10 miles of driving nicely i could feel that the converter shutter was still there. drove it to work a couple days nicely just to confirm it and its still there. I had a friend look at it and we went for a test drive with his snap on scanner hooked up. I get no codes so as far as the scanner can tell it thinks everything is normal. I also hooked up to a trailer he has that weight maybe 4-5k lbs total and the shaking gets worse. This is something the truck should easily be able to handle but we both agree that something isnt right because the more i load the engine the worse it gets. he just does mechanic work on the weekends and didnt know what i should do next.

 

Ive done a ton of googling and reading various threads, and In searching my issues online i ran across people moving the engine ground wire out of the harness by the alternator which didnt help me. I checked for AC voltage with my DVOM and got .02v but that was at the battery posts but i realized i need to go back and recheck it at the alternator stud instead. I sanded the block ground, the jumper wire going to the PCM, and the body ground by the passenger battery cable. Ive cleaned the battery cables and even grabbed a can of this copper shield stuff from work which is designed specifically for electric connections to prevent corrosion and promote conductivity. i used it on all the above sanded wires and battery connections with no changes.

 

I havent let the transmission shop know of my troubles yet because i trust that they are putting out a good product or at least trying to so i assume its on the truck side??? so now i dont know where to go next. I probably should call them at the least and see what they say and ive also been tempted to take it to this mechanic shop by my house and see if they can diagnose the problem.

 

I posted the picture of the truck because im sure there are others like me that enjoy seeing other peoples trucks. Thank you for the help. I cant wait to see what the responses are!

 

[CTcummins24V]

I dont have answers but I’m in the same boat, my truck has been at the shop for 2 months...

[Guest 04Mach1]

Maybe @Dynamic can help. I've had lock-up shuttering issues with my '01 before. After cleaning battery posts and most of the ground connections my shuttering issues went away.

[notlimah]

I think I’d agree with you in that if it's a Goerend authorizes dealer they should be putting out a solid product, so I wouldn’t worry much there.

 

What seems weird is that the issue was there before and after your new trans so it definitely seems like somethings up with the truck/electrical, not the trans.

 

I know you said you checked it with the snapon but any codes now? Have you rechecked the AC voltage correctly? Is your APPS stock as well?

 

 

2 hours ago, CTcummins24V said:

I dont have answers but I’m in the same boat, my truck has been at the shop for 2 months...

 

What?!?!? 

[Dieselfuture]

10 hours ago, notlimah said:

What seems weird is that the issue was there before and after your new trans so it definitely seems like somethings up with the truck/electrical, not the trans.

Maybe but why for 10k it seems to be fine and then it came back. I don't know crap about the automatics other than they need pressure to work and bands need to be adjusted once in awhile. 

There could be more than one issue, one with electrical on truck that eventually causes tranny problem. 

OP have you completely done the w-t ground mod and made absolute sure alternator is fine? 

Then again why after 10K they changed a part inside a tranny. I have to agree I think Dynamic will be your savior on this.

[Ram Man 02]

11 hours ago, notlimah said:

I think I’d agree with you in that if it's a Goerend authorizes dealer they should be putting out a solid product, so I wouldn’t worry much there.

 

What seems weird is that the issue was there before and after your new trans so it definitely seems like somethings up with the truck/electrical, not the trans.

 

I know you said you checked it with the snapon but any codes now? Have you rechecked the AC voltage correctly? Is your APPS stock as well?

 

 

 

What?!?!? 

codes were pulled less then a week ago and there were none at the time. i was hoping there was something so i had a direction to go.

 

apps is stock. should i look into one of those timbo units? i just discovered them while researching this problem and they seam to have good reviews.

 

i havent had a chance to recheck the alternator voltage. i work night so it makes it difficult until this weekend.

1 hour ago, Dieselfuture said:

Maybe but why for 10k it seems to be fine and then it came back. I don't know crap about the automatics other than they need pressure to work and bands need to be adjusted once in awhile. 

There could be more than one issue, one with electrical on truck that eventually causes tranny problem. 

OP have you completely done the w-t ground mod and made absolute sure alternator is fine? 

Then again why after 10K they changed a part inside a tranny. I have to agree I think Dynamic will be your savior on this.

i too had thought that the worn stator could have been caused what ever this mystery issue is. i really dont want to keep pulling the transmission for the fun of it.

i do not know what the w-t ground mod is and i will check the alternator again this weekend.

i also do not know who dynamic is but with 2 recomendations i like them already. still trying to find my way around the forum...

[Greenlee]

15 hours ago, 04Mach1 said:

Maybe @Dynamic can help. I've had lock-up shuttering issues with my '01 before. After cleaning battery posts and most of the ground connections my shuttering issues went away.

I had issues with my transmission several years ago, it didn't act the same as yours but still up and down shifted constantly, wouldn't go into OD until I hit 55 plus. I had all the grounds taken off and cleaned but was still seeing voltage problems. Didn't think much of it when I checked the battery cables but noticed the cables were not tight at all. It was the connector, cheap with a screw down tab on top to lock the cable in. Went to eBay and bought a set of Military Battery Connectors and some lugs so a friend could use his Hydraulic tool to squeeze the lugs on and the cables. He got the crimping tool at Harbor Freight on the cheap. When we finished the transmission shifted smooth as silk in all gears and the issues went away. Maybe this has nothing to do with what's going on with yours but maybe it will help someone. By the way, nice looking Dodge  

[notlimah]

3 hours ago, Ram Man 02 said:

codes were pulled less then a week ago and there were none at the time. i was hoping there was something so i had a direction to go.

 

apps is stock. should i look into one of those timbo units? i just discovered them while researching this problem and they seam to have good reviews.

 

Im not sure if the timbo would fix it or not, was just throwing out ideas. Sorta sounds like maybe you’re not getting enough line pressure or somethin in OD but I feel like that should’ve been fixed with the valve body from Goerend. @Dynamic is the best  source of info for this though. I’m sure he’ll chime in soon enough if we keep tagging him! 

[Dieselfuture]

8 hours ago, Ram Man 02 said:

should i look into one of those timbo units?

If you ever going to buy one that's the only one I would recommend

 

8 hours ago, Ram Man 02 said:

do not know what the w-t ground mod is 

 

@Dynamic is it busy guy maybe you could try calling him

https://mopar1973man.com/forum/173-dynamic-transmissions/

[Ram Man 02]

11 hours ago, Dieselfuture said:

 

@Dynamic is it busy guy maybe you could try calling him

https://mopar1973man.com/forum/173-dynamic-transmissions/

I noticed the giant splice when I moved the ground wire out of the harness. ill try cutting it open this weekend and see whats inside!

 

ill give dynamic a couple days and if he doesn't chime in by Monday ill try calling.

 

I also want to give a big thank you to everyone! This has been far more productive in just a couple days then the cummins forum ever is. I should have joined here years ago!

16 hours ago, Greenlee said:

I had issues with my transmission several years ago, it didn't act the same as yours but still up and down shifted constantly, wouldn't go into OD until I hit 55 plus. I had all the grounds taken off and cleaned but was still seeing voltage problems. Didn't think much of it when I checked the battery cables but noticed the cables were not tight at all. It was the connector, cheap with a screw down tab on top to lock the cable in. Went to eBay and bought a set of Military Battery Connectors and some lugs so a friend could use his Hydraulic tool to squeeze the lugs on and the cables. He got the crimping tool at Harbor Freight on the cheap. When we finished the transmission shifted smooth as silk in all gears and the issues went away. Maybe this has nothing to do with what's going on with yours but maybe it will help someone. By the way, nice looking Dodge  

My battery cables are original and still in fairly decent shape but ill look into those when I get a chance. Plus with the copper shield on them they should be making a good connection but I'm sure looks can be decieving. 

Edited November 9, 2018 by Ram Man 02

[Dynamic]

What do you mean by "shudder" in the TC? Are you talking about a chatter as the converter clutch slips, or are we talking about the 2nd Gen rapid lock/unlock scenario?

17 hours ago, Dieselfuture said:

@Dynamic is it busy guy maybe you could try calling him

"Busy" doesn't even begin to describe it! LOL...!!

[Ram Man 02]

20 hours ago, Dynamic said:

What do you mean by "shudder" in the TC? Are you talking about a chatter as the converter clutch slips, or are we talking about the 2nd Gen rapid lock/unlock scenario?

"Busy" doesn't even begin to describe it! LOL...!!

I dont honestly know how to answer that. i think i picked that term up from someone else and i keep using it, so...

 

the best way i can describe it is between 45 and 50mph when the converter is locked the truck shakes like it has snow or mud packed into the wheels. as soon as i drop under 45mph the converter will unlock but stay in OD and the truck is smooth.

Most of the roads around me are 55mph so im typically driving 60mph. normally above 50mph i dont feel the shake but if i let off the throttle just enough to let the converter unlock (say im approaching a car going slower) and then apply throttle to maintain my new speed, as the converter relocks for less then 1 second i can feel the shudder. i can also duplicate that over and over if i let off just enough to allow unlock and then ease back into the throttle.

 

Now if i have the truck in 4X4 all the above scenarios get slightly worse. If im in 2wd and pulling a trailer they are worse yet again. in 4x4 with a trailer its boarder line violent. My usual coarse of action if it starts shaking is to pop it into 3rd gear and let it rev until im going say 55 or more and then it can go back into OD. or ive noticed it will "power through" the shaking if it builds some boost and accelerates up to say my 60mph cruising speed.

 

I also want to say that this spring when i needed 4x4 even going 55 which is normally smooth in 2wd the shaking was still there. i would then slow down a little and use 3rd gear. I know the original transmission was doing that for several winters and i might be misremembering but i want to say that as the shaking gets worse so does the speed range.

 

other random thoughts here:

-the tires are fairly new and dont shake at fast speeds so i dont think thats an issue.

-I have lock out front hubs so the front axle is just along for the ride and i dont see any issues there.

-the rear end was swapped for a "rebuilt" dana 80 about 20k miles ago. i dont know how many miles were on the rebuild but everything was tight and i could still see the machining marks on the ring gear which told me it was a fairly fresh rebuild. The drive shaft was shortened at the same time to compensate for the larger housing and had new joints installed and was balanced.

-Some other things ive considered is maybe the Banks tuner is doing something wierd?

-Do i have an injector not working quiet right and when the converter locks at such a low rpm it amplifies the engine issue?

Edited November 10, 2018 by Ram Man 02

[Ram Man 02]

 

I had to run some errands this morning so i took the truck. got everything warmed up and batteries fully charged. when i got back to the house i left the truck running and grabbed my Ideal DVOM which is less then 5 years old so it has more features then i know what to do with. I did just like mike shows in his video. When i turn it on the meter is dancing around picking up stray voltage but if i touch the 2 leads together it goes to 0. so i hooked the leads up and it took about 5 seconds for the meter to settle out and came up with 0.002V ac. Thinking that theres no way i did that right coming up with such a small number i repeated myself  a handful of times coming up with the same results after about 5 seconds. I shut the truck off and checked resistance from the alternator case to the negative terminal of the passenger battery and got less then 1 ohm. also checked the ground strap on the PCM to battery and also less then 1 ohm so my grounds appear to be in good shape.

 

Im going to try resetting the APPS even though there doesnt appear to be anything wrong and go for a test drive next.

 

-APPS reset didnt change anything

Edited November 10, 2018 by Ram Man 02
testing complete

[Ram Man 02]

I took the truck to a different transmission shop and picked it up this morning. they don't think the vibration is the fault of the transmission. they think its somewhere else in the drivetrain and the lock up is just making it show up?

 

even though I had both drive shafts rebuilt with in the last 20k miles I'm going to have them looked at again just to eliminate that possibility as my first coarse of action. 

 

assuming that doesn't fix the issue, my next question is: I swapped a dana 80 into the truck about 20k ago. it came from a 2wd truck. had to have the driveshaft shortened because of the larger housing and they used spicer joints and balanced the shaft. Has anyone ever had issues like this that was narrowed down to the dana 80? Could the 2wd axle have the spring perches welded on at a different angle that's causing the U joints to bind? Thanks for everyones help.

 

Edited November 24, 2018 by Ram Man 02

[IBMobile]

I think you have low line pressure at that speed/RPM to fully engage the torque convertor clutch which may be caused by a weak pump or fluid bypassing from a poor internal seal/gasket, a bad overdrive piston retainer bleed orifice, or overdrive solenoid and check ball.  A full pressure test is in order for a better diagnostic of the transmission rather than a ride around the block, kick the tires and send you on your way.

 

A cheap and easy way to test if it is the transmission is to install a switch in the solenoid grounding wire.  This is the orange/black wire at the B connector, terminal 11 of the PCM.  You must be able to operate the switch inside the cab. 

 

Test drive the truck and when the problem occurs turn the switch to off. This will open circuit the ground causing the O/D solenoid to open and unlock the torque convertor clutch.  If, at that moment, the shaking stops then you know it's in the transmission.    

[trreed]

@Ram Man 02 - this is a touch off topic, but I grew up in Delano.  I remember driving by your truck on River St all through high school, and I was always jealous of it.  Had a black 1500 back in those days..  I made sure to keep an eye out for yours when I was in town last month too.  Good to see the rust hasn't gotten to it!

Edited November 21, 2018 by trreed

[wil440]

My truck does something similar, almost like driving over very fine washboards so fine that if it was washboards the tyres wouldn't  be able to follow them almost, this only happens if I make it happen, trans has just gone into lockup but the road conditions are loading the engine a little (read hill or slower vehicle)  if I stomp it it drops out of lockup and everything is normal, if I feather the throttle in close to the limit of dropping out of LU it will shake a bit, if I back off a little and accelerate slower it's fine, once it gets over the MPH/RPM area of LU it's fine, I'd put it down to too high a load too low rpm's and just drive accordingly, I probably need to check where it actually drops out and make sure thats right. I don't load my truck in lockup at all, I just manually drop it out

[Ram Man 02]

 

On 11/20/2018 at 10:49 PM, IBMobile said:

I think you have low line pressure at that speed/RPM to fully engage the torque convertor clutch which may be caused by a weak pump or fluid bypassing from a poor internal seal/gasket, a bad overdrive piston retainer bleed orifice, or overdrive solenoid and check ball.  A full pressure test is in order for a better diagnostic of the transmission rather than a ride around the block, kick the tires and send you on your way.

 

A cheap and easy way to test if it is the transmission is to install a switch in the solenoid grounding wire.  This is the orange/black wire at the B connector, terminal 11 of the PCM.  You must be able to operate the switch inside the cab. 

 

Test drive the truck and when the problem occurs turn the switch to off. This will open circuit the ground causing the O/D solenoid to open and unlock the torque convertor clutch.  If, at that moment, the shaking stops then you know it's in the transmission.    

Shop "B" did just that and i knew that going into it as they said all they are willing to do was test drive it and report back. the owner said hes been burned before by trying to fix other peoples custom transmissions and will no longer touch them. theyve done other work for me before and i respect that he was up front with me on that. hes the one who suggested looking into other areas of the drivetrain which gave me something to try as im running out of ideas.

 

Since i dont fully understand how automatics works could you clarify a little more?  the shift kit/valve body modifications are supposed to increase line pressure over stock. shouldnt that mean that there would be more then enough line pressure for a good lock up? or is that relative to the style of converter, meaning more line pressure on a stock single disc would be more then enough but since i have a triple disc i need even more line pressure yet? IDK what kind of pressures stock should be or what im at now so thats probably of no help to you.

 

As for the wire going to the PCM, am i supposed to cut that wire and install the toggle switch in series so that in the closed position the computer controls everything normally? Then when i open it im breaking the circuit that controls lock up. You mentioned something about the OD solenoid as well. will this toggle switch also cause the truck to shift into 3rd gear?

 

Can i cheat by over adjusting the TV cable so it thinks i have higher throttle position and by default increase line pressure or doesnt it work that way and only delay the shift points?

 

also i read something about the relay in the power distribution box that somehow controls lock up. Is this the same circuit im messing with or those people just wanting manual control of the lock up function

 

 

On 11/21/2018 at 4:39 PM, trreed said:

@Ram Man 02 - this is a touch off topic, but I grew up in Delano.  I remember driving by your truck on River St all through high school, and I was always jealous of it.  Had a black 1500 back in those days..  I made sure to keep an eye out for yours when I was in town last month too.  Good to see the rust hasn't gotten to it!

yup, that would be mine. pictures always hide sins. the salt is rapidly taking its toll on the truck. Thank you for the kind words. Ive been through Golden once. very beautiful area. If i ever move out of MN its going to be in the denver area.

 

 

-one other thing i just thought of was that before i got the transmission back the shop put every transmission on their dyno to check it over and i assume check out line pressures. IDK what is involved in this dyno run but i would like to think that if it had low line pressure they would have caught it then? but maybe not. im just throwing darts and hoping for the best at this point...

 

I think im going to have to suck it up and call them monday and see what they have to say. maybe they would send a tech out to help me if i drove to to their shop?

Edited November 25, 2018 by Ram Man 02

[WiscoRedkneck]

So I don't have your problem but I'm struggling with a new built transmission having lock up troubles every once in awhile it would throw a code long short I found that one of two batteries had gone bad and voltage between the two batteries was not always stable or same voltage at each battery, waiting on warranty replacement battery to see if that fixed everything 100%.  For you though how bought u joints(mainly axles)transfer case and axles.  when was the last time you changed fluids in those systems could be low fluid levels.  Im sure you know but bad u joints cause poor 4x4 engagement and weird issues alot of times vibrations and weird crap affecting other systems.  Hope that helps

Edited November 25, 2018 by WiscoRedkneck

[IBMobile]

4 hours ago, Ram Man 02 said:

the shift kit/valve body modifications are supposed to increase line pressure over stock. shouldnt that mean that there would be more then enough line pressure for a good lock up?

Higher line pressure means stronger clutch holding power so yes there should be a good lock up.   The down side to higher line pressure is a chance of seal/O-ring/gasket leakage.  A triple disk converter should have higher line pressure to handle higher torque loads  This should be accomplished by the shift kit/valve body mods.  

 

4 hours ago, Ram Man 02 said:

am i supposed to cut that wire and install the toggle switch in series so that in the closed position the computer controls everything normally?

Yes. This is the ground wire for the overdrive lock up solenoid and only controls the overdrive lock up.

 

4 hours ago, Ram Man 02 said:

will this toggle switch also cause the truck to shift into 3rd gear?

No. This will only open and close the torque converter lock up solenoid ground circuit.

 

4 hours ago, Ram Man 02 said:

Can i cheat by over adjusting the TV cable so it thinks i have higher throttle position and by default increase line pressure

No. I don't think that will help. The TV cable can change shift points by changing throttle pressure on the shift valve that the governor pressure has to over come.  The transmission output speed sensor sends road speed info to the PCM which sends a duty cycle signal to the governor solenoid.  The governor solenoid, by opening and closing, controls pressure to the shift valves.

 

4 hours ago, Ram Man 02 said:

 

also i read something about the relay in the power distribution box that somehow controls lock up

Leave that relay alone, don't remove it.