Head gasket replacement

[JAG1]

Dripley, remember...... ''slow and deliberate'', so no loose ends each step of the way. You don't want to skip something just so you can hear it run by evening boss. I know how it is when your so close to get your wings flapping again. 

Edited April 4, 2019 by JAG1

[AH64ID]

10 hours ago, Blueox01 said:

Imagine that!  So the gasket compressed as you did step 1&2 and you "re-checked torque" to make sure it was right PRIOR to the final 90* torque. But you had more movement on re-check at the center and less going out, right?

 

Not sure why you are surprised 

 

It's a perfectly fine procedure for a stock powered truck. 

Edited April 4, 2019 by AH64ID

[JAG1]

I like stock powered with all the reliability mods.  

[dripley]

3 hours ago, NIsaacs said:

Are you missing a soft plug on the front of the head, or does it just look that way?

The one at the center of the 40 bolt holes facing front? It is there you can see the edge of it in picture. 

 

3 hours ago, JAG1 said:

Dripley, remember...... ''slow and deliberate'', so no loose ends each step of the way. You don't want to skip something just so you can hear it run by evening boss. I know how it is when your so close to get your wings flapping again. 

I have been my slow and deliberate self on most of this. But I am getting to things I have done already and hope it speeds up a bit just from familiarity. I want to hear it run for sure. But it is getting in and out of wifes saturn thats killing me. I had to go get the head in it and it felt like there 2 full size passengers riding with me.

 

11 hours ago, Blueox01 said:

So the gasket compressed as you did step 1&2 and you "re-checked torque" to make sure it was right PRIOR to the final 90* torque. But you had more movement on re-check at the center and less going out, right?

It compressed at each step. I have to admit it compressed more than I thought it would. The center bolts were finger loose at the beginning of step 2 but not at recheck, though they were looser. Could not tell much difference if any on the last 90* pull. I had to work for those.

 

1 hour ago, AH64ID said:

It's a perfectly fine procedure for a stock powered truck. 

Thats what  I was figuring and the man reason I did it that way. If I ever boost up the power from where I am now I will install studs I the single bolt replacement method. I know ARP.'s torque specs are higher than the 77 speced in the FSM, but I would like to know torque is on the bolts with that last 90* turn.

 

 

I did not use the tap on the threads. Just was not comfortable with the fit. The bolt went freely into the holes prior to installing head. Then when put in after the head with my fingers covered in oil the still went with just my fingers. So I believe all is good.

 

Thanks for all the input.

[Guest 04Mach1]

8 minutes ago, dripley said:

 

 

Thats what  I was figuring and the man reason I did it that way. If I ever boost up the power from where I am now I will install studs I the single bolt replacement method. I know ARP.'s torque specs are higher than the 77 speced in the FSM, but I would like to know torque is on the bolts with that last 90* turn.

 

 

 

 

Most of the 6BT and CM550 ISB heads I've done we're at around 140 pound feet to 165 pound feet of torque with the 90° angle torque. This is according to my Snap-on Tech Angle torque wrench.  The readings seem more erratic with new bolts I've noticed also. For a stock build as long as the threads and bottom side of the flange of the head bolts have a nice light coating of clean engine oil and the proper Cummins published torque spec and sequence is followed there most likely will not be any premature head gasket failure. I've probably done over a 100 small Cummins cylinder head and HG replacements and have yet to have a come back for a HG failure.

 

Per Cummins QSOL CM550 engine manual

 

[dripley]

38 minutes ago, 04Mach1 said:

 

Most of the 6BT and CM550 ISB heads I've done we're at around 140 pound feet to 165 pound feet of torque with the 90° angle torque. This is according to my Snap-on Tech Angle torque wrench.  The readings seem more erratic with new bolts I've noticed also. For a stock build as long as the threads and bottom side of the flange of the head bolts have a nice light coating of clean engine oil and the proper Cummins published torque spec and sequence is followed there most likely will not be any premature head gasket failure. I've probably done over a 100 small Cummins cylinder head and HG replacements and have yet to have a come back for a HG failure.

 

Per Cummins QSOL CM550 engine manual

 

it is the same as the FSM.

[AH64ID]

2 hours ago, dripley said:

Thats what  I was figuring and the man reason I did it that way. If I ever boost up the power from where I am now I will install studs I the single bolt replacement method. I know ARP.'s torque specs are higher than the 77 speced in the FSM, but I would like to know torque is on the bolts with that last 90* turn.

 

IIRC it falls into the ±110 range. 

[dripley]

Does anyone recognize this? It came in a bag with the intake horn and turbo gaskets. I dont ever remeber seeing one before.

[Dieselfuture]

I had same copper o-ring, I never figured out what it was for and left it out

[Mopar1973Man]

 

 

Same here... Not used as far as I know.

[AH64ID]

I believe it's for the flux capacitor output to the PTO port on the transmission. 

[dripley]

And the scrap copper pile grows a little more.

Edited April 4, 2019 by dripley

[dripley]

I did not get as far as I wanted today. But got exhaust manifold and turbo on with new gaskets for both. So the exhaust side is done. Still cant believe I have had no frozen or brokem bolts. My turbo has not been off the truck in 13 years. 

 

Tomorrow I work on the fuel side then valve train. We will see how far I get.

<

[dave110]

Keep 'pecking' away at it.

[kzimmer]

Glad you didn't just 'wing it'.

 

Sorry I had to join in.

[Bullet]

Not too bad for an old timer...almost there. I see 2 exhaust manifold studs on there.  Did you run outta $ for the other 10?

[dripley]

4 minutes ago, Bullet said:

Not too bad for an old timer...almost there. I see 2 exhaust manifold studs on there.  Did you run outta $ for the other 10?

No, I got them all. After talking with a couple folks I decided to do a hybrid install. The 2 below them are the studs also. Those 2 were pain to get wrench on when I took it off so I figured to match top and bottom. I did remove the rear one after picture and installed the stock bolt so I could mount the heater return back to it.

[Blueox01]

On 4/4/2019 at 8:02 AM, AH64ID said:

 

Not sure why you are surprised 

 

It's a perfectly fine procedure for a stock powered truck. 

That's certainly not the case you presented before!   As I stated as you torque from the center out (you need to re-check) the torque PRIOR to the 90* turns, YOU SAID THAT WAS WRONG, YOU said to back off and re-torque, Now you disparage as it's OK for stock engines, I think he has some mods, but not pushing 600hp, SO where does your regime come into play? After a injector upgrade, ECM programing, Quadzilla,at what point does it change?

 

 

 

 

Edited April 5, 2019 by Blueox01

[AH64ID]

5 hours ago, Blueox01 said:

That's certainly not the case you presented before!   As I stated as you torque from the center out (you need to re-check) the torque PRIOR to the 90* turns, YOU SAID THAT WAS WRONG, YOU said to back off and re-torque, Now you disparage as it's OK for stock engines, I think he has some mods, but not pushing 600hp, SO where does your regime come into play? After a injector upgrade, ECM programing, Quadzilla,at what point does it change?

 

There was some initial discussion on re-torque vs re-check.. I think that's been cleared up, yet you're still bringing it up...

 

I do prefer to break the torque again, but that's technique. If you're wanting to re-torque you DO have to break torque. I never said you can't install it per the service manual. My very first post on the subject even referred to the service manual...

 

In terms of when to go above stock I would look at the evolution of the task and engines over the years. The 2nd gen didn't have you back off 360° after the initial torque and the boost was in the low 20's. The 3rd gen has you back off the bolt 360° after the first torque, providing a more uniform clamping of the head. The boost on the 3rd gens is in the low 30's. So if the boost is increased to low-mid 30's I would at least use the updated torquing procedure. If the boost is above 40 psi, then I would break the 77 and re-do it. Anything above 45 and I would go to studs. 

 

 

 

Speak of what's wrong... who is the one who said to tap the head for Cummins head bolts with 12x1.5? They are 12x1.75. 

[Blueox01]

15 hours ago, AH64ID said:

 

There was some initial discussion on re-torque vs re-check.. I think that's been cleared up, yet you're still bringing it up...

 

I do prefer to break the torque again, but that's technique. If you're wanting to re-torque you DO have to break torque. I never said you can't install it per the service manual. My very first post on the subject even referred to the service manual...

 

In terms of when to go above stock I would look at the evolution of the task and engines over the years. The 2nd gen didn't have you back off 360° after the initial torque and the boost was in the low 20's. The 3rd gen has you back off the bolt 360° after the first torque, providing a more uniform clamping of the head. The boost on the 3rd gens is in the low 30's. So if the boost is increased to low-mid 30's I would at least use the updated torquing procedure. If the boost is above 40 psi, then I would break the 77 and re-do it. Anything above 45 and I would go to studs. 

 

 

 

Speak of what's wrong... who is the one who said to tap the head for Cummins head bolts with 12x1.5? They are 12x1.75. 

I admit when I've made a mistake, as with the tap for the head bolt.  No one's 100% right all the time

15 hours ago, AH64ID said:

 

There was some initial discussion on re-torque vs re-check.. I think that's been cleared up, yet you're still bringing it up...

 

I do prefer to break the torque again, but that's technique. If you're wanting to re-torque you DO have to break torque. I never said you can't install it per the service manual. My very first post on the subject even referred to the service manual...

 

In terms of when to go above stock I would look at the evolution of the task and engines over the years. The 2nd gen didn't have you back off 360° after the initial torque and the boost was in the low 20's. The 3rd gen has you back off the bolt 360° after the first torque, providing a more uniform clamping of the head. The boost on the 3rd gens is in the low 30's. So if the boost is increased to low-mid 30's I would at least use the updated torquing procedure. If the boost is above 40 psi, then I would break the 77 and re-do it. Anything above 45 and I would go to studs. 

 

 

 

Speak of what's wrong... who is the one who said to tap the head for Cummins head bolts with 12x1.5? They are 12x1.75. 

How many engines have YOU rebuilt? or is your technique from "big twin diesel" ?