Help; narrowing down on upgrades.

[Doubletrouble]

 I still didn't see how many miles on his truck. Maybe a set of new injectors could cure most of his issues. I think new sticks with correct pop pressures would help spool the turbo a bit better. Then some gauges (sorry, didn't see them mentioned either). 

 The quad adrenaline claims to add 180hp to a stock 5.9 truck. That would put him in the low 400hp range. How much weight is he towing? 

 I won't claim to know anything about twins but the OP seems to really want them for some reason? The stock HX35 is capped at 19psi, with a quad he would also be able to increase the boost upwards of 30+psi. 

 This is all going off of what I have read and learned here so someone correct me if I misspoke please. I also just got of work and tired. Lol  

[Mopar1973Man]

Like a common issue is wrong final ratio to the ground. Really common for everyone to go for the "Cool Look" with bigger tires and lift kits. Right off the bat this destroys the final ratio and makes the truck work harder to get up to speed and generate more smoke because of virtual loading of the rolling resistance. Optimal final ratio is between 3.55 to 3.73 to the ground after tires. Remember 3.55 gears with any size bigger than 265's will be dropping that final ratio. 245's tires will nearly bring you to 3.73 final. 

 

With the Quadzilla you can tune out a bunch of the smoke between the timing and fuel maps. As I've posted I'm maxed out at 28 MPG. I'm somewhere around 500 HP to the rear tires. Personally, I don't need twins for my setup even with last years trip to Arizona hauling my RV. Never had a EGTs issue at all. But again, I've got proper final ratio to the ground of 3.69:1 with the 245's tires. No EGT's issues here. If you lower ratio than 3.55 you will have EGT's issues. 

 

The other trick... You need to have a stock fuel zone. Like I'm running just 100% fuel on the CANBus table from 5 PSI to 15 PSI. Just stock power from the ECM and the 150 HP injectors. This keeps the EGT's down while flat driving. Now put it against a hill it will pull up into the 15 to 30 PSI part of the table and start to ramp up.  Now if I was going all out and had wire tap on too then the wire tap is set to start at 15 PSI and ramp up with the CANBus together. Way better power and better Efficiency (MPG).

[DownHomeDiesel]

Sorry.  It shows just past 200k but when I bought it the mileage wasn't being recorded.  Sounds like I just need to try the single setup and I have a good chance of being happy with it.

[LorenS]

11 hours ago, Mopar1973Man said:

I'm running just 100% fuel on the CANBus table

Yeah, but with 7x.010 injectors! How much fuel stretch do stock injectors need to match that flow rate per cycle?

[Mopar1973Man]

On 8/17/2021 at 7:32 PM, LorenS said:

How much fuel stretch do stock injectors need to match that flow rate per cycle?

 

Roughly 43% more. This figure is from my flow calibration in the iQuad app. 

 

Efficiency wise you want a good range of where the fuel table remains 100% while daily driving. This is why my CANBus table is 100% between 5 PSI and 15 PSI. Now if the load on the truck manages to pull 16 PSI or higher now the CANBus fuel is ramping up to 150%. Now if the wire tap is enabled now both CANBus and Wiretap will ramp up together to 30+ PSI. This makes serious power being both CANBus and Wire Tap are running together at the same rate. The other thing I figured out you shouldn't be able 100% fuel while trying to hit or hold cruise timing. Hence the 5 to 15 PSI wide 100% CANBus fuel range of my table.

Edited August 19, 2021 by Mopar1973Man

[LorenS]

8 hours ago, Mopar1973Man said:

Efficiency wise you want a good range of where the fuel table remains 100% while daily driving

I guess I just don't understand how to adjust for stock injectors versus yours that flow 43% more. I for sure don't want 100% CANbus for anything over 2 PSI. However, I believe this is bordering on a thread hijack so will cut it out!

[Silverwolf2691]

@LorenS, the 100% canbus is in relation to stock fueling. 100% is stock. Just remember also that our injectors are not much more than a relief valve with a set of small holes on the end. @Mopar1973Man's injectors might flow 43% more but they are technically flowing the same total volume of fuel in a shorter amount of time. (<- This statement is probably wrong.)

 

Hmmm.. as I'm typing this I'm starting to confuse myself as well... overall fueling is controlled by the pin in the distribution rotor, but that its own set of craziness to understand.. Then the injector is its own fuel flow control..   

 

I'm gonna post this because I'm curious but I'm also welcome to having this broken out in to its own thread. 

[AH64ID]

30 minutes ago, Silverwolf2691 said:

If that was 100% true you wouldn’t ever get anymore fuel/power out of injectors without tuning, but we know that’s not true. 
 

It is more true on a non-CR than a CR thou, but still not an absolute. 

Edited August 20, 2021 by AH64ID

[Mopar1973Man]

32 minutes ago, Silverwolf2691 said:

@Mopar1973Man's injectors might flow 43% more but they are technically flowing the same total volume of fuel in a shorter amount of time. (<- This statement is probably wrong.)

 

This is correct. Like @AH64IDsaid my +50HP injectors in Thor is 18% over stock so yes the overhead trip computer shows about +3 MPG higher (because of the shorted duration) vs actual. Now my +150 HP injectors are not flowing the full 150 HP being I'm popped higher 320 bar so that makes about sense for the offset to be about 43% over stock. So on The Beast the 43% flow difference I'm getting 43% more at stock fuel (Quad 100%) without adding fuel. Since the duration is shorted up 43% so when I add fuel on the tuner I can expand the duration to MAX through the Quadzilla and gain so much more. 

[Silverwolf2691]

11 minutes ago, AH64ID said:

If that was 100% true you wouldn’t ever get anymore fuel/power out of injectors without tuning, but we know that’s not true. 
 

It is more true on a non-CR than a CR thou, but still not an absolute. 

 

I realized that as I was typing..

 

For as much as we know there come a point of realizing how much we don't know.

And I hit that this morning. 

[Mopar1973Man]

You have to remember the mechanical limits too. On a 24V there is only so much time that the VP44 is pumping to one cylinder so there is a limit of how much you can push through. I've know of guy in the midwest I've been talking to that built a better VP44 that flow enough to supply 1000 HP fuel only, I was giving him info about the internals of the pump and the managed to open up the internals to supply more. Quadzilla can provide up to 180 HP over stock.

 

Now on the CR engines (2003+) the common rail makes everything equal to a point. Still in all there is so much time that you can spray fuel in a cylinder. Now on the CR engine I know the Smarty can provide up to 210 HP over stock. Comparing CR vs VP44 tuning wise I know the CR engine is more precise in tuning over VP44. Being most VP44 tuners hijack the CANBus with priority message and inject the new data. Now CR engine most all tuners will reflash the ECM with new data to change up all the fuel timing and other parameters. 

[Turbo Terry]

Ok my 2 cents Bosch 275 hp rv and a edge turned up is old school but it works. Stock turbo and and a bd e brake. 100 hp will wake it up just fine. Why reinvent the wheel. But if you had a auto instead of a stick that would be some major money to do the e brake and not kill the tranny.  Gauges a must for serious pulling and hills etc.   Then theres the fuel system  that needs some attention also. You could spend more money but on a older truck with a lot of miles it’s really not needed. I think to much horsepower causes problems also. Something in the middle is the way to go. And stopping is really important. E brakes rule.  Simple is always the best 

[Silverwolf2691]

Part of mine and @LorenS's conversation is more trying to figure out how everything works and functions together. Also trying to see what happens when you change something. Not just in a more power way, but in a mathematical way. 

 

I fully agree with you as well in regards to the modifications. Hell, if it weren't for the fact that the rv275s were out of stock at DAP when I did my head gasket, that's what I'd be running right now. I jumped up to a Quadzilla from an Edge EZ because I like to tinker and for controlling smoke. And I have my work cut out for me.. but that's another thread. 

 

I'd also agree with the horsepower statement, but for diesels the bar is a lot further out in regards to issues, minus transmissions.

 

Another thing is not everyone tows heavy or daily. I'm one of them, bought my truck because I got roped into the diesel fad and because we didn't have anything capable of pulling a vehicle home without overheating a transmission. My brother has a jeep and like to go out in the woods with it. But now he has a Cummins of his own but doesn't go wheeling as much anymore. So I started Sled pulling my truck. Goal is to keep it drivable on the road, but towing might become out of the question.          

[wil440]

my 98.5 auto is stock as far as I know, stock turbo, stock injectors, 315 or 355 tyres can't remember which, quad and a mechanical LP.

I tow a lot maybe 10k lb +. my truck is a work truck foremost and people look at me like I've just landed from the planet ZOG for using it for work here in the UK (most use either ford transits or some other garbage van that can barely move under it's own steam) a transit here can only be 3500kg gross

I use a towing tune found on here all the time. EGT never get over 1000, fuel temps never get over 120f and mostly are closer to 100f, I don't use OD much at all as our speed limit in built up areas is 30mph my gearing/tyres and final drive ratio is perfect for 30mph, turn OD on and I'm perfect for the next speed limit of 50mph.

Point of this is here in the UK my truck with just the quad is more than enough, reliable ( I hope) decent fuel economy and tax man pays for fuel anyway, I've been down the horsepower rabbit hole with a blown 500ci mopar with Ray Barton, that cost me my house and nearly my marriage, I baled at £20k

My truck is a handful and it eats my 5th wheel and my work trailer and other than the quad it is as far as I know bone stock

Apologies for the ramble and I see that peeps have to make the HP mistake/journey what ever you want to call it, my restriction is trans and I'm ok with that

PS beat a 1 year old BMW X5 off of the lights yesterday easily and the guy was going for it, my truck wasn't even in D when the lights changed 

[Mopar1973Man]

On 8/20/2021 at 12:13 PM, Turbo Terry said:

Ok my 2 cents Bosch 275 hp rv and a edge turned up is old school but it works.

 

The biggest reason it not street friendly is the Edge Products (Edge EZ, Edge Comp, and Edge Juice has no timing controls). As injectors get bigger you need more retard at launching time to build boost fast (what Edge can't do), then once boost is built you need to advance timing more (again another thing Edge can't do.) I've started back in 2006 with Edge Comp and the biggest thing I hated was the excessive smoke and no way to clean it up (bad timing and fuel maps). Basically Edge just stacks on top of the ECM with extra fuel and timing with no control were you want that extra fuel at or timing. 

 

Once flipped over to the Quadzilla problem gone being I can adjust timing to meet the engine needs. This also gave me the record on the site for efficiency of 28.04 MPG. Re-inventing the wheel??? Nope... About making the wheel more round which Quadzilla does and not squared like Edge products does... The other fact is I cvan can place in a nice flat stock fuel area where there is neutral fuel... Again another thing Edge can't do...

 

[DownHomeDiesel]

So allow me to ask a new question based off of replies.  My truck spends most of its time between 500 and 3000 ft elevation (morr on the low side).  Again, with a quad and 150hp injectors what single would you guys suggest? Good for towing with a NV4500.  Looking around in the more recent forums there seems to be a lot of talk about GXE 57 and SXE 62.  I cant find the meaning of "G" and "S."

[Threadzy]

I’ve heard good things about both. The 57 is good for 400-450 hp and the 62 is good for 500-550 hp. The 57 will spool up  a little faster while the 62 will do better on keeping the EGT’s down.  Just my .02.  I’d talk to @dieselautopower   

[dieselautopower]

the Borg Billet 57mm is a nice option for 450-500HP

 

57mm cast (heavier wheel and flows 61lbs/minute

57.15 billet (people sometimes round up to 58mm)  66lbs/minute of air and faster spooling  good for up to 500HP

sxe62mm good for 550HP 77lbs/minute

for reference hx35 is typically 54mm and flows 51lbs or 54lbs/minute--- the turbine side and very small wastegate are pain points for this turbo.  Good for 325HP or about  350HP if you port the wastegate.  HY35 is a little smaller.

[Silverwolf2691]

I agree with what everyone here has said. Since you have a manual, a slightly smaller turbo would be of benefit because you loose all you boost between shifts. also depends on how often and how heavy you tow.

 

Just wanted to answer the last part of your comment. the "S" and "G" are just a naming convention/part number/turbo style for Borgwarner. The GXE is technically an S300-G but with a bunch of internal upgrades and a billet wheel. @dieselautopower please correct me if I'm wrong.

 

The S series of turbos go from S2XX all the way to S5XX. The inducer diameter in mm fills in the XX's. Borgwarner then came out with the SXE series of some of the same turbos with (I think) better flowing compressor covers, 360° thrust bearings, and billet wheels.  

[DownHomeDiesel]

Thanks for the replies.  Another question - should I go with the 12 or the 14?  How much difference does or what would make me choose one over the other.