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Teardown and Rebuild

TFaoro
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TFaoro

TFaoro

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On 4/12/2016 at 9:45 PM, NightHawk said:

 

Please do not take offense to this statement, but you are using the dyno incorrectly.  The dyno is a tuning tool and while it measures output, the benefit is being able to see how your changes affect your power output in real time.

 

My suggestion for your proceeds forward are below, as while it may not provide the answers you seek at this time it will enable you to find them.

  1. Swap the 7X.013 injectors to 7x.010, as you are not going to be short of fuel to achieve a 550-600hp rig.  The worse thing you can do is over injector/nozzle your rig as its not a CR were fuel can be pulled from the tune.  7x.010 are a good choice for a street/tow truck that has drive-ability while still making good power.
  2. Rent dyno time and focus on tuning your truck (fuel/air) to find out what combo makes the most power while having the best all around drive-ability.  If in your shoes, I would start on air side as from the post previous in this thread you are having issues with the compound setup.  I would remove any electronic stacks and just use a single tuning box (quad) and only turn on boost fooling/timing.  Once you get the compounds happy (drive pressure vs spoolup) start adding the fuel via quad in small steps.  As you know, adding fuel will change turbo setup up (wastegates) but at-least you had a starting point to build off of when working in small steps.

 

 

 

Never an offense. I'm open to all suggestions.

 

Those injectors are too small. I'm shooting for 600+ and I know they won't get the job done. 

I can pull fuel from the tune easily. I can pull the fuel down far enough I can tow heavily and have zero issues with exhaust temps. It's a work truck and a play truck. How it's set up now works very well for both. I had it hooked to a 20ft 8.5ft tall enclosed trailer this weekend. With my foot on the floor and can-bus only tuning the max exhaust temps were 1202 @50psi boost.

 

Adjusting the boost elbow doesn't do a whole lot. With it closed off the primary is making 20psi with overall boost at 70+. The drive pressure is well over 100 though.

With it open it makes around 60psi with 30 coming from the primary. 

Somewhere in the middle is where it seems to run the coolest. Around 65 overall boost and 25 coming from the primary. Adjusting the boost elbow has no effect on drivability or my DD tune power, as the wastegate never opens. 

-Right now I don't have any stacks. Just the Quadzilla Adrenaline.

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CSM

CSM

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On 4/12/2016 at 10:48 PM, notlimah said:

This thread expresses all my wants and fears of getting into the world of +500hp land. So I'll continue to live vicariously through you Tyler! :cool:

I don't know where I'm at and I'm right there with you. 

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NightHawk

NightHawk

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2 hours ago, TFaoro said:

Never an offense. I'm open to all suggestions.

 

Those injectors are too small. I'm shooting for 600+ and I know they won't get the job done. 

I can pull fuel from the tune easily. I can pull the fuel down far enough I can tow heavily and have zero issues with exhaust temps. It's a work truck and a play truck. How it's set up now works very well for both. I had it hooked to a 20ft 8.5ft tall enclosed trailer this weekend. With my foot on the floor and can-bus only tuning the max exhaust temps were 1202 @50psi boost.

 

 

Just :2cents:, if you think your setup can clean up a set of 7x.010 injectors then you are making well beyond your 500ish dyno numbers.  I rather have air > fuel in a setup to allow for room to grow later once a setup gets dialed in.  The fact that adjusting the wastegate setting doesn't affect a whole lot makes me wonder if the turbo's aren't playing well together.

 

Check out this thread (if you haven't already).as i find it interesting on people's combos.

 

http://www.competitiondiesel.com/forums/showthread.php?t=153825 

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JOHNFAK

JOHNFAK

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18 hours ago, TFaoro said:

 

Somewhere in the middle is where it seems to run the coolest. Around 65 overall boost and 25 coming from the primary.

 

I missed this.

Kinda does lend that your #'s are a little low.   Still should be driving the primary harder as its so much smaller turbine. 

 

16 hours ago, NightHawk said:

 

Just :2cents:, if you think your setup can clean up a set of 7x.010 injectors then you are making well beyond your 500ish dyno numbers.

 

7x.010 really means very little.  

Same setup I mentioned before with more than enough air (twins) running 7x.010 were just shy of 450hp.

All the reasons mentioned before as well as injector setup. 

 

I bet your problem is the primary as everything else in the build gets you over 600.

 

Either way Id have a talk with Carl or Weston or Barder Turbo or similar for real world input.

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NightHawk

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7 hours ago, JOHNFAK said:

7x.010 really means very little.  

Same setup I mentioned before with more than enough air (twins) running 7x.010 were just shy of 450hp.

All the reasons mentioned before as well as injector setup. 

 

I bet your problem is the primary as everything else in the build gets you over 600.

 

I 100% agree the turbo setup is not utilizing the fuel in the manner it should to achieve the power goal.  

 

However more then enough air vs. a complete burn condition (cleanup) is a total different discussion from my experience.  I don't want to derail but so often watching friends and folks in the diesel world over-fueled trucks thinking it will make more power when a leaner condition does better.

 

The problem with a leaner condition (haze at WOT) is that it tends to run hotter which why people add more fuel to counteract the condition. 

 

@TFaoro

I still think a 4 hour dyno session is your best option to play with turbo & quad settings.

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AH64ID

AH64ID

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503hp vs 518hp is fairly meaning less without rpms. Just like torque without rpms is meaningless. 

 

If the old setup peaks at 3400 rpms and the new one at 2500 rpms there is going to be a HUGE butt dyno difference. 

 

Just like looking at the 6.4 Hemi vs Aisin 6.7 hp. The Hemi has more power but the 6.7 makes it at a lower rpm which improves the towing experiance. Once up to speed the Hemi could actually out tow the 6.7, but getting up to speed it will lack. 

 

 

The excessive smoke is your lack of higher rpm hp. Dyno's are hard to load the motor and even harder at elevation. My setup is very quick spooling and very very clean running and it smokes on the dyno, even when loaded to 100% with the service brakes. 

Edited by AH64ID
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TFaoro

TFaoro

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Blew the 4500 on Friday night. Cruising up a hill @20 psi of boost I heard a pop, and I had no 5th gear. I hoped it was just the nut backing off, but it was not. I drained the fluid, and it came out grey... not a good sign. Removed the OD housing, and everything looked okay, so I dropped the trans. Turns out the gear in the picture has stripped out on the countershaft. (Inside part of the gear is stripped) I've never seen a failure there before, but O well. It was bound to blow eventually. 

IMG_20160416_214217598_zpsbt9h2jkv.jpg

 

I was consider rebuilding it, but after further inspection the entire trans is filled with metal flakes, and most of the gears are showing signs of surface fatigue on the gear faces. That means I would need all new gears, all new syncros, all new bearings, a mainshaft, and a countershaft. I don't feel like putting that kind of money into a trans that will blow again. I'm on the hunt for a G56 to put behind it now. I'll keep this thread updated.

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TFaoro

TFaoro

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2 hours ago, notlimah said:

:mad:

 

I feel for ya Tyler! At least it sounds like your in good spirits about it. 

 

Ill be looking forward to the G56 swap as that was my plan for my truck if I ever did an auto -> manual swap!

Thanks. I knew it was coming, it's just a bad time for it to happen.

I've got a lead on one that came out of an 05 with 90K on it. It would come with the trans and an np271 transfer case. I'll talk to the guy more tomorrow about pricing. 

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CSM

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Doing a quick search on Car-part.com doesn't look great.  Looks like they are going for about 2k-2500 for a G56.  They will want a core as well, but in many cases the smaller yards will take a NV4500 as a core if you talk to the right guy.  

 

Boot Hill Truck in Denver is the first place I'd call. 

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CSM

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37 minutes ago, Me78569 said:

Ouch man.  

 

 

I suppose it was bound to happen.  

 

Well, last weekend it was me.  This weekend it was Tyler.  I wouldn't drive your truck next weekend... haha. 

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TFaoro

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3 hours ago, CSM said:

Doing a quick search on Car-part.com doesn't look great.  Looks like they are going for about 2k-2500 for a G56.  They will want a core as well, but in many cases the smaller yards will take a NV4500 as a core if you talk to the right guy.  

 

Boot Hill Truck in Denver is the first place I'd call. 

 

That was the first place I checked, and they have 3. I've got a guy who swapped his g56 for a 4r100 though. Right after he swapped them he dropped in a set of ball bearing twin turbos... 68mm over a 108mm. Needless to say he didn't even attempt to make the g56 hold that power. If I can swing it I'll be getting the trans with the Tcase. The np271 is a monster compared to the np241 dld.

 

43 minutes ago, Texas CTD said:

Man that really sucks.

 

 A built auto would be fun. :burnout2:

 

I know, I wouldn't sacrifice the ability to shift my own gears either.

Not to mention the price! 

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Mopar1973Man

Mopar1973Man

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Just feeding the fire over here "Six States Distributing" has NV4500 transmissions for $1,500.00 but with a $1,530 core. Don't feel bad I just wiped out 3rd and 4th gear on my truck. 1st, 2nd, 5th and Reverse still work fine. KInd of bad timing but good... At least it happened near home, I had a trailer in tow so just did a bit a rig swapping and got trailered home. I've got my friend coming from Washington Thursday so we'll have a wrench party. Install his new ISSPro gauges sitting here and then drop the transmission out of my truck and go to Boise pick up there other one. Hopefully I can get one into Boise quick enough while I got hands here.

 

So my thread is split over here...

 

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TFaoro

TFaoro

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1 hour ago, Mopar1973Man said:

Just feeding the fire over here "Six States Distributing" has NV4500 transmissions for $1,500.00 but with a $1,530 core. Don't feel bad I just wiped out 3rd and 4th gear on my truck. 1st, 2nd, 5th and Reverse still work fine. KInd of bad timing but good... At least it happened near home, I had a trailer in tow so just did a bit a rig swapping and got trailered home. I've got my friend coming from Washington Thursday so we'll have a wrench party. Install his new ISSPro gauges sitting here and then drop the transmission out of my truck and go to Boise pick up there other one. Hopefully I can get one into Boise quick enough while I got hands here.

 

So my thread is split over here...

 

That makes me feel better. I am nearing 205K so I suppose they aren't that far behind. Mine has been abused much worse than yours too. I'm sure you'll have it rolling in no time! 

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Mopar1973Man

Mopar1973Man

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Heck I'll have mine out on the shop floor by tomorrow. Making phone calls and getting transmission sent to Boise. 6 hours be back home and ready to stuff back together.

 

Strange part is I'm pretty anal about monthly fluid checks and dealing with things as they come. This caught me blind sided and NV4500 just crapped the bed. But a rather common failure...

 

https://www.google.com/search?client=ubuntu&channel=fs&q=nv4500+3rd+and+4th+gear+missing&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8

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Mopar1973Man

Mopar1973Man

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Heck I'll have mine out on the shop floor by tomorrow. Making phone calls and getting transmission sent to Boise. 6 hours be back home and ready to stuff back together.

 

Strange part is I'm pretty anal about monthly fluid checks and dealing with things as they come. This caught me blind sided and NV4500 just crapped the bed. But a rather common failure...

 

https://www.google.com/search?client=ubuntu&channel=fs&q=nv4500+3rd+and+4th+gear+missing&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8

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