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backcountrymountains

Upgrades to 2000 2500 for towing

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I've got a new to me 2000 2500 2WD Regular cab with NV4500 transmission and I believe the HX turbo (rubber wastegate tube). 190k miles and no idea how many miles on or even what injectors it has. I'm looking into upgrades to improve towing performance with a 14000lb trailer (20k GVW). I'm not looking to have huge HP or Torque, just to have a decently powerful, reliable and efficient rig. I definitely don't want to upgrade stuff and push it beyond its limits.

 

I don't currently have a EGT sensor. I know I need one.

 

I've already put on the GDP mechanical fuel pump so hopefully I won't have to worry about the VP44 dying for lack of pressure. Running 2 stroke with every fill-up.

 

I live in Colorado and have a 35% opacity limit on smoke coming out my tailpipe.

 

From what I've read I should just do what MoparMan himself has done and get 7 x 0.10 injectors and a Quad V2. I'm concerned about emissions if I have to remove the Quad to get it tested. I'd rather not tap the VP44

  • SAC or VCO?
  • How bad is the smoke on 7 x .10s without the Quad?
  • If I clamp the waste gate (and maybe use a boost fooler) will that solve smoke issues of running without the Quad for opacity inspection?
  • Do I definitely have to upgrade the clutch?
  • Do I definitely have to get ARP headstuds installed? Can I put in headstuds without a new head gasket?

 

How well do RV275s work for towing without a chip? Would I still have to upgrade the clutch? Do RV275s need a boost elbow and fooler to get enough air?

 

Anybody do a death wobble steering stabilizer mod?

 

The articles section is great on this site but it sure would be cool if there was a "list of stuff that works together" page that collated some of the great info floating around in the forums.

 

Thanks for the help,

Justin

 

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Posted (edited)

7 x .0085's are about the limit without tuning to pass smog at altitude.

 

7 x .010's with v2, is a great setup even if you dont tap the pump.  It will run stronger, cleaner and cooler than just running 7 x .0085's without tuning.

 

That would be my recommendation.

 

Leave the quad plugged in they dont check under the hood here in co only lug down test.  

 

 

Given the altitude you really need tuning if you are pulling any passes.  Any extra fuel really spikes egts.

 

Clutch is a good idea.

Edited by Me78569
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Thanks for the info. I'm only at 5000' up north of Denver.

 

Questions I forgot:

Who has a decent price on all of this?

Do some vendors have better injectors than others?

Anybody currently running this kind of upgrade on a stock clutch?

 

Thanks

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Thanks for the info. 

 

Is there any reason to get new injector bodies vs reman?

Has anyone just kept the bodies and replaced the nozzles?

 

@Mopar1973Man, did you have any issues with your clutch after using the Quad or upgraded injectors? I'm not super excited about doing a clutch upgrade.

 

Thanks

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Are there any new injector bodies.  I think what they call knew are all remanded Bosch bodies

 

All mechanical injectors,  turbo, boost fooler. Smarty only for half power to pass emmisions

 

Clutch when needed

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Posted (edited)

Already running South Bend ConOFE clutch. Stock clutch barely held the Edge comp back in the day with stock injectors.

 

https://mopar1973man.com/garage/vehicle/101-2002-dodge-ram-2500/?show=mods

 

Another reason why I opted for the 245's tire the smaller tires tend to break free early and easy which saves the clutch and driveline from damage.

 

 

 

Edited by Mopar1973Man
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For the money spent and the lack of necessary supporting mods, I would go with an Edge EZ and RV injectors. The EZ does the boost fooling and comes with a boost elbow for the wastegate hose. The RV's are new Bosch, so most vendors don't require a core. 

 

I used this combo for 12 years on my '01. OEM clutch, lift pump and turbo. It dynode  335 hp. 300k miles later, I am still running the RV injectors, 4 years on the Edge Juice.

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While not at altitude my current setup is a beast towing in the mountains of PA.

I think 100's are a great set up but there are guys who live in the mountains who can give you better advice.

DAP injector are great, IMO get them popped slightly higher, or pull them and get them popped every 30,000 miles as a preventive measure.

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I have towed my 15k 5th wheel with just he rv 275's and it did fine it was not a beast but did the job. 6 to 7 percent grades in 5th, 4th your case, thru the mountains in NC. A boost fooler and elbow would help. For a while I had a Banks Ottomind on it till it crapped the bed. All this on the stock clutch and never sipped it, also the clutch had 170k on it.

 

 My vote would be the EZ and RV's. Economical and a decent bump in power. The Banks tuner added abot 75hp and was not smokey. I have not personally run an EZ. I also am not mountain dweller but have towed over the Blue Ridge many times with the 5th wheel. Thats in the 6000 foot or so elevation.

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Ez and rv275's should pass emissions without trouble.  

 

 

Gonna be ~300hp which is plenty for towing.  Def need a boost elbow

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I'm running the Edge EZ and RV275 injectors (see signature below) and tow the 8K 5er all over.  The last month I towed 2624.9 miles with lots of power for the hills.  The fuel mileage, hand calculated, was between 12.5 and 13 MPG.   

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18 hours ago, pepsi71ocean said:


DAP injector are great, IMO get them popped slightly higher, or pull them and get them popped every 30,000 miles as a preventive measure.

 

To prevent what? If I did that on mine, that would be 10 times (300k) Even spark plugs go 100k miles now. That would be every 3 months on most busy hot shot trucks, not to mention all the big trucks, ag equipment, construction and stationary equipment. Injectors are not that fragile.... 

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2 hours ago, NIsaacs said:

 

To prevent what? If I did that on mine, that would be 10 times (300k) Even spark plugs go 100k miles now. That would be every 3 months on most busy hot shot trucks, not to mention all the big trucks, ag equipment, construction and stationary equipment. Injectors are not that fragile.... 

 

To prevent pop pressures dropping below the ideal, or your intended levels. I've found they drop fairly quickly, especially in the first 10,000 kms I think I lost close to 10 bar. One strategy is to pop them about 10 bar higher at initial install. When things wear in, the hope is that they will settle where you want. But they will still continue to drop over time. 

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2 hours ago, NIsaacs said:

 

To prevent what? If I did that on mine, that would be 10 times (300k) Even spark plugs go 100k miles now. That would be every 3 months on most busy hot shot trucks, not to mention all the big trucks, ag equipment, construction and stationary equipment. Injectors are not that fragile.... 

I to am not going to be popping every  30k KISS. I'll replace if when I find a reason to. Have 6 or 8 years on my 7x09 injectors

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27 minutes ago, kzimmer said:

 

To prevent pop pressures dropping below the ideal, or your intended levels.  

 

To do this would require your rig to be down for a week, or having a spare set of injectors. Do you really think this is going to happen? It is not a 15 minute job....depending on the make and model it can be a serious undertaking. What about warranty issues messing with a new rig? It is okay if you want to do this but to recommend it?? What does Cummins, Mopar, Bosch or even DAP say? What about all the other makes and models of diesels? If this practice pertains to a second gen. 24 valve, it should pertain to all. Injectors are pretty much the same.  

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37 minutes ago, NIsaacs said:

To do this would require your rig to be down for a week, or having a spare set of injectors. Do you really think this is going to happen?

 

Did I say you had to, and did I say I recommended it? No. I was just answering the question of why one would do that. Also, my rig wouldn't be down for a week. My rig would be down for 3-4 hours while I pop them on my bench with my cheapo eBay pop tester. 

 

38 minutes ago, NIsaacs said:

depending on the make and model it can be a serious undertaking.

 

We are in the 24 valve Dodge Cummins forum. They are all the same, and it does not depend on make/model.

 

39 minutes ago, NIsaacs said:

What about warranty issues messing with a new rig?

 

Who the hell has a new 24v Cummins truck?

 

39 minutes ago, NIsaacs said:

It is okay if you want to do this but to recommend it?

 

Again, I didn't recommend it. I explained why it's not a bad idea, and why one would be interested in doing this. Based on MY personal experience, and no one else's.

 

40 minutes ago, NIsaacs said:

What does Cummins, Mopar, Bosch or even DAP say?

 

I don't know, and I don't really care. Why don't you ask them for yourself if you have concerns?

 

41 minutes ago, NIsaacs said:

What about all the other makes and models of diesels?

 

Again, being that we are in the 24 valve Dodge Cummins forum, I only speak for that truck, with experience from mine. 

 

45 minutes ago, NIsaacs said:

If this practice pertains to a second gen. 24 valve, it should pertain to all. Injectors are pretty much the same.  

 

I don't claim to be an expert, but to say every single injector is the same? That's just not a true statement. For example, what about the modern diesel injectors that share a common rail, with electronic solenoid control?

 

I'm sorry to bust your balls here. But really. If someone wants to do EXTRA maintenance on they're machine to help improve everything they can, make things more efficient, predictable, and reliable? Instead of judging them, maybe pay attention and you might learn something new. If you don't want to take the extra step or precautions on your equipment? That's fine man. Nobody is judging you. Do what makes you happy.

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Posted (edited)

Humm, why would you single out the 24 valve. Like I said, injectors are mostly the same, the part that matters, is. Why would you disturb a perfectly good sealed and operating injector, thats asking for issues. Rather than using a sub certified pop tester, I will leave mine alone. Maybe you didn't recommend the practice but you did indorse it. 

 

I am happy everyday, thanks.

 

I stand by everything I said and why. In my 50 year history of owning, working on them and operating (diesels) I have never seen or read about this practice...so yes...there are times I question internet lore.

 

Enjoy your day.

Edited by NIsaacs

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Posted (edited)

Thanks to all that posted suggestions here.

 

 I'm definitely someone that is inclined to follow the manufacturer recommendations. I figure they're smarter than me and have knowledge behind their engineering decisions. Obviously HP and torque can be bumped up quite a bit, but I'm always concerned about how that will effect reliability. I'd really like to know why the manufacturer didn't just increase the air and fuel to the engine to bump the specs. I'd think more power would lead to more sales.

 

Anyway, I'm leaning toward RV275s because they are a manufacturer approved option for the engine which seems safe. My question is how do I know that I'm getting the right fuel/air mix to the engine? The RV275 delivers more fuel, but does the ecm add more boost/air to burn that fuel? Do I need to adjust it? What data do I use to do that? Look at EGTs and smoke out the tailpipe? @NIsaacs, @Me78569, @dripley

 

I'm definitely interested in the Quad, but I'm not sure I want to mess with how the engine works. Obviously people have done some damn impressive upgrades to performance, but I'd definitely trade reliability for performance. I might just check out the Quad programmer info to see how it all works and what all it changes. $675 is a bit of cash for me but if I'm spending on a tuner it seems like the one with the most options.

 

It would be sweet to do unlimited upgrades but the cost seems to rapidly spiral as well.

Injectors: $400

Quad: $675

Clutch to hold INTENSE TORQUE: $800+

Turbo to feed the BEAST: $1000

Headstuds to contain the BEAST: $450

 

Maybe someday.

 

Side question: If the Quad can control fueling and air, can't it increase HP/torque without swapping injectors? Is it just a timing thing where it isn't possible to get enough fuel in at the right time with smaller injectors?

 

Thanks guys.

 

P.S. @IBMobile 4.10 will pull anything, right? What does the mystery switch do?

Edited by backcountrymountains
headstuds

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The electronics will control everything based on sensor info. All you is plug and play with the EZ and the RV's. The RV's will push more fuel which will produce more exhaust and spin the turbo faster and push more air in the engine. All you have to do push the go pedal. You will need a boost elbow to help it. I bleeds pressure off of the waste gate to keep closed longer allowing higher boost pressures. There is no need for head studs with tthe EZ.

 

The Quad is different in that you can many parameters. It is a bit over my head but still might go that route one day

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Posted (edited)

The only upgrade in power I’ve done to mine is RV275 and the quad XZT. and of course turnbuckle on the hy35 to keep the waist gate closed. The quad XZT is a canned tuner with three levels. Stock, economy (35 HP) and level three which adds 65 or 70 HP. Mine pretty much lives on level 2 except when I’m towing through the mountains I use level 3 on the hills. I usually tow between 6, and 14000 lbs. It holds its own but still you got to watch your temps and drive according to your gauges. With mods like mine I don’t believe any need for head studs and since  you are running a gear box, nothing more than a heavy duty clutch if and when your stock clutch where’s out, Do your research and shopping when it comes to clutches a lot can be had for way less than you think.

 

With that said, I would have stepped it up a notch and went with bigger injectors and maybe a quad adrenaline but with my 47re auto I have to take it easy, but the stock drivetrain should be able to hold a little above 300 horse without additional mods .

 

 

Edited by 01cummins4ever

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For towing

 

Stage 1

Quadzilla Adrenaline, buy the fuel pressure sensor add on. All gauges, custom tunes and more power than Timing box and 75HP injectors that is easily adjustable.

Boost Elbow

(assuming lift pump is already done)

 

If you want more power

 

Stage 2 (all of the above +)

 100-150HP injectors

Clutch to hold extra power (Valiar Organic HD single 400-450HP)  (DD Valair Organic 550HP)

2wd low kit (allows 2wd Low by locking out front wheel power in 2WLO if you have 4wd to crawl back at 1.5mph instead of clutch in / ou tto stay under 5mph)

better headlights https://www.dieselautopower.com/standard-to-sport-edition-headlight-conversion-9402spchl

Turbo (57/65/12 or 14 SXE turgo (good to 450HP)  

or... do compound turbos with head studs and valve springs (about $650) (kit $1300, turbo s464/83/1.10AR $650) support 500-550HP and spool super fast,  and get 60psi, and sustained temps of about 1150 when loaded going up hill.

 

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